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By Daryl Simons Jr. | As employees rethink the role of work in their lives, AEC firms must reconsider what long-term performance really requires.

By Janki DePalma | A “hell yeah” mindset helps firms move from fear-based decisions to choices grounded in clarity and strategy.

By Ying Liu | Ownership mindset starts before equity, with the clarity, trust, and responsibility people need to lead like owners.

By Greg Sepeda | The best leaders resist false choices and build the capacity to operate within tension while maintaining clarity, discipline, and forward momentum.

By Mark Zweig | Strong leaders address underperformance directly, clearly, and quickly before it damages culture, client relationships, and team morale.

By Chris Catton | Recruiting is the AEC industry’s biggest challenge, yet most firms still operate without a real recruiting plan.

By Rachel Gresham | Culture erodes when organizations ask people to behave one way while systems, incentives, and authority structures reward another.

By Matt Cooper | Software should reduce friction, surface better information sooner, and free people up to do higher-value work.

By Janki DePalma | A manager’s guide to building a culture where recovery is respected, contribution is sustainable, and being seen doesn’t require shattering.

By Kraig Kern | When the engine stalls, take the pause to reset, refocus, and get ready for what comes next.

By Mark Zweig | If you want people to work harder, hire the ambitious, lead by example, and reward real performance.

By Mark Zweig | Calm leadership under pressure –whether in business, aviation, or racing – proves experience and composure drive effective decision-making.

By Ezequiel Tovar | An ownership transition plan must combine the right strategy on both the human and financial side.

By Ying Liu | These three common leadership personas quietly sabotage strategy execution.

By Matt Cooper | AEC firms face a middle management gap, but technology can empower PMs, boost efficiency, and accelerate talent development.

By Will Swearingen | Firms that are truly boosting profitability aren’t just raising rates; they’re reengineering how they charge.

By Mark Zweig | Success comes from bold, consistent marketing efforts that push visibility, build trust, and attract high-quality clients.

By Mark Zweig | If you want more “word of mouth” advertising, assess how your firm measures up against these six critical factors.

By Mailena Urso | The path toward success is shaped by your courage, curiosity, and resilience.

By Greg Sepeda | Taking time to slow down, prioritize self-care, and recharge improves productivity, mental clarity, and overall well-being.

By Brad Thurman | Consistently nurturing long-term client relationships and adding value are essential to maintaining loyalty and avoiding complacency.

By Morgan Stinson | Delegation is crucial for growth, helping managers shift from doing the work themselves to empowering others effectively.

By Ezequiel Tovar | Firm owners need to first be intentional, vulnerable, and transparent in order to make their transition a success.

By Matt Verderamo | Three simple but impactful strategies to shift your mindset from needing more to getting rest.

By Jeremy Clarke | Job descriptions need radical simplification for authenticity, brevity, and impact in attracting top talent.

By Greg Sepeda | If you can clear out the unnecessary underbrush, you will benefit from a staff that finally can breathe, see new paths, and move your firm forward.

By Kristin Kautz | AI is becoming a crucial component in reshaping the AEC industry, especially in the realm of marketing.

By Janki DePalma | When you notice feelings of resentment, take a moment to explore what that warning sign is trying to tell you before it escalates into something more.

By Janki DePalma | It’s hard to shake off the feeling of being lazy, but it’s critical that we redefine our work-rest balance to enhance well-being and productivity.

By Peter Atherton | These shifts have fundamentally changed the way we must lead and develop our teams and organizations if we want to sustainably grow and prosper in this new era.

By Mark Zweig | These three things are important to your firm’s success, but they may require a reallocation of your time and money.

By David Harvey | When well-trained staff are equipped with the skills needed to do their jobs well, everyone will reap the benefits.

By Scott McNally | If you swing for the fence, remember the fans, watch for curveballs, and rally your team, your firm will be successful.

By Mercedez Thompson | It’s worthwhile to continue conversations around what marketing is and is not and why it’s critical to your bottom line.

By Jason Cunningham | There are several proactive actions that can be implemented to mitigate IT security risks and keep your firm prepared.

By Andy Chavez | Actionable solutions for owners and employees alike to promote the longevity of high performers in today’s workplace.

By Liisa Andreassen | President of Campos Engineering (Dallas, TX), an MEP engineering, testing, adjusting and balancing, and commissioning firm.

By Alexis Eades | The consequences of burnout can be detrimental, so give your mental health the care it deserves.

By Henry Liang | Mr. Miyagi was right: Balance is key. So, make sure both sides of your work-life scale are balanced.

By Kevin Brown | Those companies that are resolute, agile, and creative will define the workplace rules of tomorrow, while the rest will be forced to follow or buckle beneath the pressure.

By Chad Clinehens | Optimism among AEC firms is high as we look ahead to 2022 and beyond.

By Mark Zweig | This isn’t easy, but it will ultimately make you more successful – not just as a business leader, but in life itself!

By Phil Keil | There is a bridge to opportunity that can lead us to a landscape where the change we seek is possible.

By Mike Nunley | The pandemic highlighted the importance of workday social interaction, protecting key technical staff from burnout, and using technology to engage with clients.

By Jamie Claire Kiser | It’s time to reevaluate every penny of our cost structures and ensure that our investments are going to our workforce.

By Eddie Wade | Burnout is blazing through workplaces at a rapid pace and negatively impacting productivity, morale, and retention.

By Peter Atherton | Playing to win requires a real investment in organizational redesign, and the creation of both a vision and a culture that’s worth the work.

By Mark Zweig | Firm owners need to be thinking about and planning for the huge wave of business that’s coming just around the corner.

By Liisa Andreassen | President and founder of PaleoWest, a heritage consulting firm that guides clients’ projects through regulatory challenges posed by prehistoric, historic, and paleontological resources.

By Mark Zweig | Look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are still doing what you want to do every day. Maybe now is the time to get really serious about your transition.

By Tammi Nagucki | Reconsider some of this advice, and you may find some insight to guide you through our current world of disruption and stress.

By Mark Zweig | When times get tough, you have two choices: You can cut expenses and eliminate all investments, or you can double down on making improvements in your business.

By Jamie Claire Kiser | Respond to your call to action, whatever it may be, and build a legacy that will leave your profession better than you found it.

By Jamie Claire Kiser | Companies are adopting fluid work from home policies and people have begun migrating away from dense cities.

When you don’t meet your commitments, you disappoint people and they remember it. If people can’t count on you, they won’t hire or promote you.

The ways our businesses and facilities function in relation to employees and customers are bound to adjust due to COVID-19.

By Mark Zweig | If you make these 50 calls, you will not only get new projects, you will also learn a great deal and renew old friendships.

By Jamie Claire Kiser | Though the immediate impact of COVID-19 is bleak for many in our industry, there is reason to see the foundation forming for a different type of AEC firm.

Burnout prevention is the key to healthy, growing, and resilient organizations, especially now.

CEO of ISG (Mankato, MN), a multi-disciplinary design and engineering firm that has growth in its DNA.

President and CEO of Parametrix, a 100 percent employee-owned engineering, planning, and environmental sciences firm based in Seattle, Washington.

There’s a push for architects and engineers to consider the safety of construction and maintenance workers when designing new structures.

If you’re looking to grow your firm, be diligent and adaptable in finding the IT system that suits your needs.

Unless you put yourself out there as perfect, courts will typically hold you to the standard of reasonable care if you make a mistake.

When working on a project, there are various human roadblocks that consistently clog the path to project execution.

A firm leader must break out of the deadline cycle and make a meaningful connection with employees. If not, performance will (predictably) suffer. Most of what we do today as leaders is not leadership. In...

Under the Accepted-Work Doctrine, contractors and designers are relieved of liability to injured third parties after a completed project goes back to the owner. The Accepted-Work Doctrine – also known as the Acceptance Doctrine, the...

President of LandDesign (Best Firm Multi-discipline #30 for 2017), a 165-person landscape architecture, civil engineering, and planning firm based in Charlotte, NC. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “From the day LandDesign was founded, it was intended...

President of Gale Associates Inc. (Best Firm #18 Multi-discipline for 2018), a 115-person consulting firm based in Weymouth, Massachusetts. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Gale has been involved with a number of design-build procurements, primarily for...

If we want to grow as people and as firms, we have to first find the fine line, and then what’s on either side of it. Choice breeds chaos, or so the saying goes. Even...

COO of Aguirre & Fields, LP (Best Firm Multi-discipline #27 for 2018), a 120-person engineering firm based in Houston. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “If you haven’t started planning for ownership transition, you’re behind and you...

President and CEO of Morrison-Maierle (Best Firm #27 Multi-discipline for 2017), a 280-person firm based in Helena, Montana. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “It’s vital to our success,” Murphy says, referring to entrepreneurship in the firm....

In the absence of extraordinary situations, the courts will rely on the contract’s terms, not the Impossibility of Performance Doctrine. My wife and I visited St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome a few years ago. A...

CEO of Huckabee (Hot Firm #7 and Best Firm Architecture #3 for 2018), a 300-person architecture firm based in Fort Worth, Texas. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “For us, diversifying is a bad thing,” Huckabee says....

President and CEO of Larson Design Group (Best Firm #5 Geotechnical and Best Firm # 29 Multi-discipline for 2017), a 300-person firm based in Williamsport, PA. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “One person alone can’t make...

President and CEO of Tectonic Engineering & Surveying Consultants P.C. (Hot Firm #89 for 2018), a 500-person multifaceted engineering firm based in Mountainville, NY. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Years ago we tried the sales force...

CEO of SidePlate (Best Firm Structural #4 for 2018), a civil engineering firm based in Mission Viejo, California. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “There is no question that organic growth is the way to go,” Gallart...

Co-founder, president, and CEO of WSB (Hot Firm #34 for 2018), a 475-person full-service consulting and design firm based in Minneapolis. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “The best PMs create their own brand, supporters, and clients,”...

In the AEC industry, both individuals and firms need to brand and present themselves as ‘core brands for core viewers.’ Christina Zweig Niehues and I are conducting a Building your Personal Brand workshop at the...

Each week, The Zweig Letter features commentary from top-flight leaders of AEC firms. Here is a compilation of how they handle, and move beyond, failure. By The Zweig Letter Staff John Hiltz, president of OHM...

President and founder of Brudis & Associates, Inc. (Hot Firm #36 and Best Firm Multi-discipline # 51 for 2016), a 90-person firm based in Baltimore. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “While I like to say we’re...

CEO of FRCH, a Nelson Company (Hot Firm #41 for 2016), a global design firm based in Cincinnati. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Everyone has access to the company’s financial information,” Tippmann says. “I believe this...

President and CEO of SEPI Engineering & Construction, Inc. (Hot Firm #74 for 2017), a 350-person firm based in Raleigh, North Carolina. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “People need to feel like their work life is...

Non-creatives have to understand and respect what marketers do, or we run the risk of demotivating those who are critical to our success. A recent study by InSource reported that “Creative professionals are being asked...

President of Long Engineering, Inc. (Hot Firm # 24 for 2017), a 90-person land surveying and civil engineering firm based in Atlanta, Georgia. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Begin to identify internally if you have potential...

Be careful. While a design firm can retain its copyrights by contract, the firm can just as easily give those rights away – by written contract. Design professionals are, traditionally, reluctant to give up ownership...

Founder and CEO of GATE (Hot Firm #35 for 2017), a 300-plus person oil and gas engineering consulting company based in Houston. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “When clients/friends see what we post and comment to...

Co-founder and president of BHC Rhodes (Hot Firm # 15 for 2017), a 130-person civil engineering firm based in Overland Park, Kansas. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Profit centers go against the dynamic of a team...

CEO of Apex Companies, LLC (Hot Firm #41 for 2017), a 700-person environmental engineering firm based in Rockville, Maryland. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “There is nothing that drives value creation for an organization more than...

Principal at G2 Consulting (Hot Firm #67 for 2016), a 75-person geotechnical, geo-environmental, and construction engineering firm based in Troy, Michigan. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “As long as the clients are pleased and the revenues...

President, CEO, and chairman of the board for T&M Associates (Hot Firm #73 for 2016), a 350-person engineering firm based in Middletown, New Jersey. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent Gary Dahms, PE, PP, CME, has been...

Founder and president of Gunda Corporation (#32 Hot Firm for 2017), a 60-person engineering consulting firm based in Houston. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “I’m not a big fan of utilization rates,” Gunda says. “I believe...

President of OHM Advisors (Hot Firm #25 for 2017), a 440-person engineering and architecture firm based in Michigan. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Many firms tried to cut their way to success,” says Hiltz, looking back...

President of Burns Engineering (Hot Firm #88 for 2015), a 220-person firm based in Philadelphia. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “The downside of the seller/doer model is that staff often likes the doing more than the...

Managing principal and president of HED, Inc. (Hot Firm #34 for 2017), a 350-person design firm with offices in Illinois, Michigan, and California. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Small changes often lead to significant results,” says...

The Spearin Doctrine: Public owners do not shed all design risk by contracting for design-build if there are specified criteria upon which the design-builder is to rely. On government projects you may sometimes hear a...

Chairman and CEO of David Evans and Associates, Inc. (Hot Firm #93 for 2016), a 1,000-person engineering firm based in Portland, Oregon. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent Barkouli joined DEA in 1988 as an engineer-in-training. He...

A principal currently serving as president with W&M Environmental Group, LLC (Hot Firm #81 for 2016), a 50-person environmental services consulting firm based in Texas. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “One thing we didn’t expect is...

Comprehensive Environmental, Inc. (Best Firm #1 Geotechnical, #3 Environmental, and #13 Civil for 2017), a Miami Lakes, FL, based 80-person engineering and contracting firm. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “I’ve never termed any event in my...

President and CEO of HRP Associates, Inc. (Hot Firm #76 for 2016), a 120-person engineering consulting firm based in Farmington, Connecticut. “Big, bold, rapid changes are exciting and sometimes needed, but well planned, steady change...

CEO of The Thrasher Group (Hot Firm #77 for 2016), a 350-person architecture, engineering, and survey consulting firm based in Bridgeport, West Virginia. “By definition, a good project manager is someone who delivers. Period,” says...

President and COO of DCI Engineers (Hot Firm #62 for 2017), a 320-person Seattle firm with offices in seven states. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Start early,” Heeringa says of ownership transition. “Make it a standard...

CEO of Sullivan Engineering (Hot Firm #89 for 2017), a 20-person building envelope consulting firm based in New York, New York. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “We strongly reward autonomy and encourage each other to make...

President and CEO of Wade Trim (Hot Firm #76 for 2017), a 500-person multidisciplinary engineering and consulting firm based in Detroit. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “Organic growth is going to become more difficult as recruiting...

President and chairman of Garver (Best Firm Multi-discipline #2 and Hot Firm #43 for 2017), a 500-person consulting and professional services firm in North Little Rock, Arkansas. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “We give our employees...

President and CEO of BSB Design (#87 Hot Firm for 2017), a 180-person architectural design and development firm based in Des Moines, Iowa. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent “My advice is to get on it!” says...

In states that adhere to the ELD, design professionals have a strong defense against third-party claims for economic damages. Know the law in your project state. Law books are full of various “doctrines” that have...

While I am a big believer in promoting from within – it’s essential, really, if you want to have any kind of cultural consistency over time, not to mention that it’s more economical – it’s...

Whenever you look at firms that aren’t profitable, they inevitably have one, some, or all of the following problems: The owners aren’t involved enough with the business. The owners take out too much money. The...

Transparency, training, and feedback are all important, but so is remembering that people don’t live to work, they work to live. In recent TZL articles you’ve heard my thoughts about sharing the company’s financial results...

You might think about ditching the fancy slideshow in favor of something much more engaging and authentic – the story of your firm and its people! We’ve all been there; the highly anticipated meeting with...

Can project owners be the judge of disputes? Of course they can, especially if the contract clause allows for judicial review. We’ve heard children ask parents to explain their decisions, only to get this response:...

Assignments, attitudes, and acknowledgment – if you take care of the Big Three, your marketing people will do great things. I have been an A/E industry marketer since the early 1980s. In those 30-plus years,...

2017 Hot Firm & A/E Industry Awards Conference sponsor is led by Dawson Fercho, a business development guy who is part social worker, part psychologist. By Liisa Andreassen Correspondent Dawson Fercho says he likes to...

Someone turns in their notice. They were either close to being fired or should have been. They let you down. Or, they are going to work for a competitor. Do you refuse to say “goodbye”...

We have an expression in the management consulting ranks at Zweig Group. It is this: “The names and faces change but the cast of characters remains the same.” What that means is we keep seeing...

What does your contract say about the ability to recover legal fees or staff time incurred to recover unpaid fees? Good question, huh? Two recent cases show that architects with good contracts can recover not...

Every so often I have a number of disconnected thoughts for our readers, none of which merits all of my allotted space, but each of which could prove valuable. This is one of those weeks....

CEO of BIG RED DOG Engineering & Consulting (Hot Firm #65 for 2017), a 105-person multi-discipline engineering firm based in Austin, Texas. By Richard Massey Managing Editor “It’s been true since day one and remains...

The acronym is PDB, not to be confused with PBR, the beer, or PBR, professional bull riding. Bone up on the latest method of project delivery. By some statistics, design-build accounts for some 40 percent...

In spite of an incredibly healthy economy and high demand for AEC services throughout the land, there are still individual companies out there that are struggling financially for one reason or another. And inevitably, since...

As designers, it’s time to redefine the world and make it better, and that starts with preserving our resources. As I read the various architecture, interior design, and engineering journals, I see many people, firms,...

As architects and engineers, we need to be on the front line in the campaign against inefficiency and waste. I just listened to an excellent edition of National Public Radio’s TED Radio Hour titled “Finite,”...

Get the word out to your people that any form of illegal conduct – bribery and racketeering among them – will be grounds for immediate termination. Last week, attorney G. William Quatman, FAIA, Esq. wrote...

Campaign finance laws, bid rigging, price fixing, and bribery. We hear about this with contractors, but how about design professionals? Several times each year, there is an article about some contractor being debarred or convicted...

The winning percentage in the A/E industry is not that good, so it’s vital that you learn how to take a punch and get back up to fight again! You’ve probably heard the quotes about...

Over the years, we have developed work styles that are not good for our physical, mental, or emotional health, but that can be changed. It’s not that we’re bad people, or that we aren’t working...

Many of us in the marketing clan ended up in it by accident, but in an industry that once considered us a no-no, we have chosen to stay, and to succeed. In my more than...

By William Quatman | We all know negotiating enforceable contracts is part of the game, but in case you forgot a few things, here’s a refresher.

Arbitrary or unduly bureaucratic rules demotivate employees, impose unnecessary constraints, and can even spark an office rebellion. Years ago, I started work at a new office where I had two administrative assistants supporting me. One...

Plant closures and small modular reactors are expected to define the nuclear landscape for the foreseeable future – and provide opportunities for enterprising engineers. By Richard Massey Managing Editor Though the future of U.S. nuclear...

AIA’s new push for materials transparency might help the planet, but it could also put design firms up against the wall should cases go to court. On April 8, 2016, the American Institute of Architects...

Sometimes, firms get lost in utilization and project profitability, and end up solving the wrong problem. People respond to what you track and report. The accounting really does matter. For example, we've helped companies dismantle...

People want to do business with people they like, so make as many meaningful connections as possible if you want to grow your business. There are two instances where a powerful relationship with a client...

Build a better, more sustainable company with these suggestions from Mark Zweig. 2015 is shaping up to be a FANTASTIC year for firms in this business. It’s really fun to see how many firms are...

They sell themselves into the job but do little else, Mark Zweig writes. We have a big problem in the A/E/P industry. As good as most of our people are, after 34 years of working...

Editorial: By Mark C. Zweig It seems to me that many – if not most – companies in our business today have given up on the idea that they can grow in this economy. Instead,...

By Jeff Clark, Principal, Investment Banking I have been a Nevada resident and have seen it all, from boom to bust, over the past seven years since I moved here from California. “Viva Las Vegas,”...

By Christine Brack Principal, Business Planning Consulting Design firms don’t sell an actual product, even if drawings and written deliverables are part of the final package. They make their living selling units of professional time....

As many firms in our industry are still reeling from a tough market for what they do, it is becoming almost blasphemous to suggest that they get back to a growth philosophy. It’s not that...

As someone who teaches entrepreneurship in The Sam M. Walton College of Business at the University of Arkansas, one of my responsibilities is to mentor students who enter business plan competitions. In these competitions, students...

Making money is rarely the reason one either buys into or starts their own A/E/P or environmental firm. It certainly can work out that way— i.e., that one makes a lot of money in this...

After 28 years of working in and around A/E/P and environmental firms, it is clear that there are many good firms and only a few truly great firms in this business. The “truly great” firms...

Over the years, in the pages of The Zweig Letter, we’ve spent a lot of time trying to help companies grow. But the fact is many of those running and operating A/E/P and environmental firms...

A lot of design and environmental firm principals have been around a long time— they’re an average of 48 years old. That means that they have probably been doing this work for 20-25 years or...

This is a question that I see the majority of principals of A/E/P and environmental firms wrestling with. Should they sell their firm to a larger company, get liquid, and ready themselves for the next...

How many times have you seen it— one or more of the best people in either your firm or another local AEC firm quit their jobs and start a new company? By year’s end, word...

As you get your A/E/P or environmental firm ready for 2003, you may be patting yourselves on the back. The fact is that while overall, 2002 was not as good as 2001, a lot of...

I’m seeing a lot of firms following a program of short-term profit-maximization right now. It’s easy to understand. Industry profits are down as the results from our 2002 Financial Performance Survey of A/E/P & Environmental...

Leroy Whiteside, president and CEO of Those Fabulous Architects, Inc., a 200-person firm based in Charleston, South Carolina, is a great guy. He is, in many ways, the archetypal design firm principal. He works 60...

Denise Jones, CADD technician and seven-year employee at DEF Associates, was fed up with the complainers at her firm. What was wrong with these people? All they could do was gripe about one thing or...

When design or environmental firms face problems, the first course they usually pursue is one of cost cutting. Obviously, there’s merit to it. I have recommended cost cuts to clients many times over the years,...

“These are the good old days,” as Carly Simon used to sing. I’m talking about the current period of prosperity for just about everyone in the A/E/P and environmental businesses. Firms are making record profits....

As A/E/P or environmental consulting firms, we love to tell our clients that we can meet the schedule, stay within the budget, and provide high quality. Then under our breath, we mutter: “Pick any two,...

I am not proud of my five airline frequent flyer program gold cards. All that means is that I spend too darn much time in the air, when I’d much rather be someplace else. But...

We went to Scottsdale, Arizona, on a family vacation last week. Of course, we did the usual tourist stuff. We visited Montezuma’s Castle near Sedona and rode the stagecoach at Rawhide, the quintessential tacky tourist...

If you’re not worried about who is going to take over when you’re gone, you should be. The second-tier management in an A/E/P or environmental firm is every bit as important as the first. This...

You’re all aware of it. The “circular theory,” otherwise known as “what goes around comes around.” It’s one of nature’s laws that seems to hold true as much as the laws of physics. If you’re...

I just got back from the annual business planning meeting with the board of directors of a client of ours that underwent a significant turnaround in the last couple of years. They went through everything...

There are lots of different success formulas for A/E/P and environmental consulting firms. It’s always interesting to me when one of our consultants discovers that a company we are working with is successful in spite...

There’s truth to the old adage that “the seeds of destruction are sown along with the spoils of success.” We see it all the time, but that doesn’t make it any more palatable. I’m talking...

A lot of firms in our business are going through some serious introspection. And if they aren’t, they probably should be. Change is occurring at an accelerating pace. Yesterday’s hot firm may be a dog...

It is widely accepted that any well-managed A/E/P or environmental consulting firm should monitor and report on the profitability of the projects it undertakes. Pick up practically any management newsletter, or look in the practice...

While 1994 was a truly great year for most architecture and engineering firms, and even for some environmental consulting firms, there were still firms in our industry that lost money. And it’s not unusual for...